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HomeMy WebLinkAboutJOINT CHESA/VB MTG 11/23/82 VERBATIM - Joint Chesapeake/Virginia Beach City Council Meeting at the Pavilion, November 23, 1982, at 12 Noon. Virginia Beach Council members Present: Chesapeake Council Members Present: Nancy A. Creech Vice Mayor Willa S. Bazemore Vice Mayor Barbara M. Henley John W. Butt Mayor Louis R. Jones Walter Cartwright, Jr. Robert G. Jones Cecil Y. Jenkins ,7. Henry McCoy, Jr., D.D.S. John W. Keffer Meyera E. Oberndorf Mayor Sidney M. Crnan Edward B. Speers Virginia Beach Staff: Chesapeake Staff: Thomas H. Muehlenbeck, City Manager John Maxwell, City Manager J. Dale Bimson, City Attorney Betty J. Callaway, City Clerk Charles Salle', Asst. City Attorney knar Dwarkanath, Public Utilities Ruth Hodges Smith, City Clerk Ronald Hallman, City Attorney Aubrey Watts, Public Utilities Press: Mike Gooding, Virginia Beach Sun Fred Goodman, WNIS Radio Georgeann Herbert, WTAR Radio Kent Jenkins, Virginian-Pilot Mayor Oman: "Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to call this joint meeting of the Virginia Beach City Council and Chesapeake City Council to order, if I may. But before we start off, I'd like for you all to stand and Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag. - appreciate very much your being here today. - - start the meeting I'd just like to ask - Clerk if she'd and Virginia Beach - inaudible." City Clerk: "Mr. Baum? Mrs. Creech?" Councilwoman Creech: "Here." City Clerk: "Mr. Heischober? Mrs. Henley?" Vice Mayor Henley: "Here." City Clerk: "Mr. Jennings? Mr. Jones?" Councilman Jones: "Here." City Clerk: "Mr. Kitchin? Mrs. McClanan? Dr. McCoy? Mrs. Oberndorf?" Councilwoman Oberndorf: "Present." City Clerk: "Mayor Jones?" Mayor Jones: "Here." Mayor Oman: "- call our roll if we may - and I might say that it's a real pleasure. I think this is the first time the two Councils have met together inaudible - to discuss - inaudible. At this time we'll call our roll. mrs. Callaway will you call the roll." City Clerk: "Councilman Butt?" Councilman Butt: "Here." City Clerk: "Councilman Cartwright?" Councilman Cartwright: ..Here." City Clerk: "Councilman Jenkins?" ' Dr. McCoy arrived at 12:45 p.m. -2- Councilman Jenkins: 'Here." City Clerk-. "Vice Mayor Bazemore?" Vice Mayor Bazemore: "Here." City Clerk: "Councilman Jennings? Councilman Keffer?" Councilman Keffer: "Here." City Clerk: "Councilman Speers?" Councilman Speers: "Here." City Clerk: Councilman Ward? Mayor (Drnan?" Mayor Oman: "Here. The purpose of the invitation which you received from Virginia Beach was to discuss water proposals and water projects which Virginia Beach has indicated that they are interested in and are proceeding with at the present time. I would like to make mention of this to the Council of Virginia Beach. On our City Council we have liaison people who are designated by the Mayor to work with the City Manager in certain areas of activities so that the whole Council will be informed from time to time. Council doesn't take any particular part of their work away from them because Council votes on all matters but our liaison person for water and when it comes to public utilities and so on, is Councilman Keffer. Councilman Keffer you might raise your hand so they might know who you are. Instead of having a committee, where there's many people working on a co=ittee, you can't meet together, he chairs that particular area. The rest of the Counittee is made up of the City Manager and the Mayor. So I just wanted to give notice to Keffer as we started off. The purpose of the meeting together today - -, is to come and be informed and to hear information regarding your water puzzles and at this time I'd like Mayor Jones to present that to our Council. I'd like the Council, if you have questions, our Council, you direct the questions to the Chair which will be Mayor Jones and you might want to ask other members of Council questions and he will designate it as we go along." Mayor Jones: "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Virginia Beach, Mayor Oman, Vice Mayor Bazemore and gentlemen of the Council. Also Mr. Maxwell, the City Manager. We have a presentation that we would like to present to you at this time. Our Director of Public Utilities, Mr. Aubrey Watts, is our expert on water in Virginia Beach and the most capable man that we know of in the State to make this type of presentation to you. Our purpose is to present the infor- mation to you so that you will be knowledgable on what Virginia Beach has proposed to do and we hope that you will feel free to ask any questions that you might have concerning any of the information that Mr. Watts presents to you. We want to be completely open with you, answer any questions that you have and want to have as much dialogue in this session as we can possible have. Incidentally, Dr. @IcCoy." Councilman McCoy-. "I'm sorry I'm late now." Mayor Jones: "He's one of our Cc)uncilmen that just came in. Mr. Watts would you proceed." Aubrey Watts: "Mister Mayor and members of Chesapeake/Virginia Beach Council, I'd like to distribute to the ChesaFea@.c a document which has pre- viously been shared with Virginia Beach. It represents some of the work we have been doing in the last several months so if you'd like, I'd just like to pass these on do@ here and members of the Virginia Beach City Council, I apologize for not having enough copies for everybody, but we have gone through the first printing of this. For the members of the Chesapeake City Council, I'd like to indicate that this document represents some discussions which have taken place with the Virginia Beach City Council primarily over the period of the last two to three months. The first exhibit contained in the report is what we felt that Council had requested from us from a standpoint of looking at a water resource. Those particular traits that they were looking for the staff to develop and they primarily relate to the issues of quality, quantity, envirormental impacts, cost and certain other issues like interbasin transfer and the equity issues associated with it. Based upon those guidelines, the City staff went back and in the second exhibit, kind of went back and sum- marized many of the documents that have been prepared over the last six years in Virginia Beach." -3- Aubrey Watts: 'We went back to the period of time in 1973 when Virginia Reach first purchased the Norfolk Distribution System and really got in to the utility business, and basically brought it up through the period of time where we had examined in some detail some 26 different alternatives but had really started in 1978 in working in six major areas. We have completed all the engineering work associated with those six major areas. On page nine in that exhibit, we also developed a matrix where we ranked four of the major alternatives that were cur- rently being considered. They were Lake Genito, the Assamoosick Reservoir, Lake Gaston and some of the in-to@ alternatives. We have tried to assiqn values to each of those alternatives for six major criteria: Cost, environmental impact, a group that we call legal, political and institutional issues, quanity, quality and reliability. In the final document are Exhibit C, basically talked about the staff's recommendation to proceed with the Lake Gaston alternative and talked about each of the criteria and what the staff's evaluation of those six major areas of concern were. The final page is basically a water statement which was prepared after many deliberations by the Virginia Beach Council and also discus- sions with the Governor and many of the agencies that we would have to be dealing with. If I could impose on some of you particularly the Chesapeake people to kind of turn around, I'd like to refer to this map. The three major alternatives that we've been considering were an impounclment on the Appomattox River forming what is referred to as Lake Genito. It's upstream from Lake Chesno and then a waterline into the Tidewater area. This project was estimated at $232-Million and involved the purchase of some 15,000 acres of land and cooperation with the Appomattox River Water Authority. Another alternative that most of you all are familiar with is the Assamoosick alternative. An impoundment of Assamoosick Swamp with a pump over from the Nottoway River during the periods of high flow and then a pipe line into the Tidewater area. The cost of that project based on our estimates was approximately $173-Million. Another alternative was the Lake Gaston alternative with a withdrawal in Virginia at Pea Hill Creek and then line in to Tidewater. @at project is estimated to cost $184-Million. Now each of these projects had different types of enviro=ental impacts. Obviously the two reservoirs would have the envirorunental impact of acquiring large holdings of land and then flooding that with associated envirorunental impact. In the case of the Assamoosick Swamp it was a little bit more complicated because there is a question of an endangered species there and the archeological impact of the Not- toway - -. In the case of Lake Gaston, any significant adverse environmental impact that could occur has already occurred with the impoundments there. So from an environmental standpoint it was felt tbat Iake Gaston represented the alternative with the least adverse envirorimental impact. From a standpoint of legal, political and institutional issues, there were many different thinqs that got involved there. Both Gaston and Assamoosick at some point in time may get into concerns with downstream raparian rights that might be affected in another state. Basically North Carolina's impact. With Lake Genito alternative, that would not be an issue in that all of that river basin is in Virginia. However, raparian law in Virginia and Ilorth Carolina appears to be similar. There are also questions that were raised by agencies such as Fish and Wildlife. We found that downstream from the Roanoke Rapids Dam, there was significant concern with the Fish and Wildlife people and some of the striped bass spawning grounds. Upstream from the Roanoke Rapids Dam, that did not appear to be any type of problem. one of the other things that we looked at was reliability. Each of the alternatives have the capability of delivering water quantity that would meet Virginia Beach's needs throuqh the year 2030. But in the case of the Assamoosick Swamp alternative, the total safe yield calculation for that particular system is estirnated at 65 million gallons a day. If we need that amount of water through the year 2030, then that pretty well totallinq allocates all of the flow into Nottoway, Black- water, Maherin, Chowan River Basin, so that there's really not any additional flow remaininq in that river that would be available for any other industrial or economic development purposes or even for municipal purposes. There's also the possibility that since those withdrawals would be taken at the time of flood flow in the Nottoway River, that it might impact the delusion which is occurring with the Union Camp discharge. In the case of Lake Genito, there's approximately 100 million gallons a day surplus in addition to all of the needs of the ARWA members and the Tidewater communities. So there is significant safe yield above and beyond the needs of this metropolitan area and the Tidewater communities. However, since that also is the most palsied alternative we were unable to identify any significant source of funding that might, state or federal, that might be available to assist in securinq that addition surplus safe yield that might be available at some future date. In a case of the Roanoke River Basin, which is a highly regulated river system, there are five major impoundments: Philpot Da., Smith Mountain Lake, Lake Christopher, lake Gaston, Lake @anoke Rapids. It's regulated very well by the Corps of Engineers. The average flow in the River is over 6-billion gallons a day. The flow that we had identified that we were lookinq for was approximately 6-million gallons a day or one percent of the total flow in the river." -4- Aubrey Watts: "The, in the case of Genito and Assamoosick, it was, would arnount to approximately six percent of the flow in each of those river basins. Another advantage of the Lake Gaston alternative is the fact that we're concerned about other possible pollution sources that might get in there. Whether or not it's point or non-point. In the case of the Assamoosick and Genito, there's very little protection should a spill occur upstream. However, by pulling from Lake Gaston, if any inaustrial spill did occur, let's say in Danville or Martinsville or in that part of the state. There would be time to react to that ana also Lake Kerr which is a significant reservoir, can serve as a settling basin for any type of pollution that might get into the area. There, I think in mentioning the cost of Lake Gaston, was the second from a cost standpoint. We had concerns also with the current Safe Drinking Water Act and water quality concerns with the high organics in the Assamoosick alternative and the Genito alternative but particularly with Assamoosick. Virginia Beach is having a tough time complying with the THM regulations right now and the water from the Assamoosick Swamp certainly would not help that. It would probably complicate it. My impression is that Chesapeake would probably have some concerns with that also. In Lake, in the Roanoke River Basin, what we did was, we went to the North Carolina Departinent of Natural Resources and Community Developrnent and the Corps of Engineers in Wilmington and put all of the flow and all of the water quality data back to 1911 and fed that into a computer. We then put the worst conditions of record during any of that period of time. We found that during an average condition, that the draw-down that would occur in Lake Kerr was approximately a sixteenth of an inch given the types of flows that we were looking at. Even if you took the worst drought of record, 60 million gallons a day would result in a draw-down in Lake Kerr of less than two inches. Now it is important that you keep in mind that the river is very well regulated. Lake Kerr fluctuates anywhere from 30 to 40 feet. Lake Gaston fluctuates approxirnately one foot up and down because when Lake Gaston drops to a certain point, a door simply opens the spillways and in turn allows more water to go down stream. In Lake Roanoke Rapids, the lake fluctuates on a daily basis 5 to 6 feet. What I am trying to indicate to you is that eventhough a withdrawal would occur at Lake Gaston, the impact of that withdrawal would be seen in Lake Kerr. Because of the extremely large flow in this river basin, it would basically be impossible for the citizens surrounding Lake Yerr or Lake Gaston to ever really see the difference. One of the concerns that have been aired from time to time was with people who had boats or cottages or property there, would there be a significant impact. The plain and simple truth of the matter is they probably will never be able to see that withdrawal. I think that basically summarizes the data that we evaluated and of the six major criteria that we used, Lake Gaston came in first in four of the areas and second in two of them. it was clearly the best choice, it was the original choice of the Corps of Engineers, the State Health Department had informed us that they were so concerned about the water quality in the Assamoosick alternative that they would find it difficult to issue a permit for that to be used as a water source so long as there was any alternative. Another criteria that Virginia Beach was concerned about, and it gets into each of these, was a question of time. obviously, we would like to bring something on line as soon as possible. We are clear that with the fewer enviromnental impacts, with the better quality and quantity of water available, that probably the Lake Gaston alternative would probbaly be one that we could implement quicker. That pretty well concludes my remarks. I will be glad to try to answer any questions." @a Jones: "Before we go any further, does any of the Members of Chesapeake City Council have any questions they would like to ask Mr. Watts?" Vice Mayor Dazemore: "If I may, I will ask a question to start with. We heard your reasons and maybe some of us on Council may want to ask more questions re- garding your selection, but at this point, I know there are many things and there are many obstacles that have to be followed through on. We have heard some comments about North Carolina and so on, wbat are the main obstacles, how are you going to approach them to be able to accomodate this thing as a successful venture?" Mr. Watts: "There are many disciplines that need to be addressed in looking at property of this magnitude. I think from an engineering standpoint, the project is a basically simple engineering project. We have to construct an intake or water withdrawal point, obtain a contract with VEPCO and the Corps of Engineers and then simply proceed to lay a bunch of pipe. The actual construction -5- of the pipeline would take approximately five years. There are a wide variety of financial issues that have to be addressed. There are legal issues, obvioiusly, that have to be addressed. But, from the standpoint of which alternative is least destructive and thereby probably the easiest to implement, Lake Gaston clearly was the better choice. It is much easier to acquire the right-of-way for a pipeline than it is to acquire large boldings of land. The permitting process is significant. I would say that it would probably take anywhere from 18 months to two years to get all the permits associated with it. One of the things that you have to look at in a project of this magnitude is the number of continued liabilities or where you think you will be shot at the hardest. That is why quantity of water, quality of water, envirorunental impacts, are very important. We thought it would be quicker and easier to get this type of withdrawal approvea even with the legal problems associated with it than the problems of a large drawn-out envirornnental impact assessment of a resevoir. It will not be an easy project--it would be a mistake for any Membr of City Council or Staff to think that this project could be completed in five or six years. It is probably at best a ten-year project." Vice Mayor Bazemore: "For a number of years the Southeastern Virginia Services Board has dealt with the proposition of getting water from Lake Gaston. We encountered in this problems. As a part of that was a problem with the government of North Carolina as to whether or not we would be granted permission to remove water from Lake Gaston. What do you see as Virginia Beach's problem that would be different from the ones that we encountered, and how do you think your solutions would affect the future of Southeastern Services Board?" Mr. Watts: "It is very difficult to project what the literal issues and percep- tions of people might be. I think that time has changed--" Vice Mayor Bazemore: "Excuse me. I am not talking about perceptions. I am talking about the reality of doing business with the government and the reality of the true impact of Virginia Beach's efforts to get water from Lake Gaston. What I mean is not perceptions, basically what do you suggest the impact will be on the Southeastern Services Board." Mayor Tones: "Maybe I had better try to answer that. As you are probably aware, we met with Governor Robb concerning our decision as to which source we would like to go to for the water. in meeting with Governor Robb, he agreed that this was the least disruptive alternative. In response to your inquiry about North Carolina, Governor Robb anticipated thta there would be some reaction from North Carolina. As to how much reaction, we don't even know yet. If you look at the map--" Vice Mayor Bazemore: "Excuse me, am I to assume that Virginia Beach has not had any contact with North Carolina?" Mayor Jones: "No, that is not true. We have contacted North Carolina. But, to say that Governor Hunt has given us some answers as to what his position is would not be true. He has not." Councilman Keffer: "Is this going to be a completely open session, or is any of it going to be in Executive Session. Can I ask any question I want to and you just tell me to hold that one, or what should I do?" Mayor Jones: "If you ask something that we feel has to go into Executive Session we will tell you. How is that?" Councilman Keffer: "Okay. I want to know, first of all, I am speaking for myself. I can't speak for the whole Council. I appreciate your letting us come down and talk this thing over. I am glad Virginia Beach is going ahead and taking the steps they should have taken years ago. How much water does Virginia Beach anticipate using in the year 2030?" Mr. Watts; "It is projected at 50 Million gallons." Councilman Keffer: "Fifty Million a day. Amar, how about Chesapeake?" Mr. Dwarkanath: "Somewhere between 22 and 23 million gallons." -6- Councilman Keffer: "Have other communities, or you think about other com- munities, Portsmouth or Suffolk, been in--" M@ r Jones: "We are in the position to where we would welcome participation from any communities that woula be willing to participate." Councilman Keffer: "Okay, is Norfolk presently involved?" Mayor Jones: "We have discussed the project in general with officials of Norfolk. We have not discussed specifics such as the SPSA, the criteria that we present to SPSA. We have not discussed financial details with the City of Norfolk. There is a strong possibility of Norfolk participating either as a partner with other communities in the pro@ect or as a treatment facility for the project. The details of that have not been worked out, and, in fact, have not been specifically addressed." Councilman Keffer: "I see this somewhat as Virginia Beach is going ahead hoping, at least trying to make this thing a regional project. I think that is good. Do you think it is a possibility, I know you haven't discussed it, that Norfolk would come in with their lakes, pipelines, treatment plant and sail and just have one big system? Do you have any ideas like that for the future?" Mayor Jones: "I guess I have to say that I can't answer that question at this time." Councilman Keffer: "Have you discussed, studied, or thought about a treatrrlent plant somewhere near the source so you can sell treated water to the communities?" Mayor Jones: "I would like for Mr. Watts to answer that question for you." Mr. Watts: "We did not feel that with the current health regulations that that is a prudent way to handle it for several reasons. One is it is much cheaper to store raw water at this end of the pipeline than it is treated water. The other is because the new safe drinking water regulations on coronated hydro- carbons that we are much better off to treat the water at this end. There is also, there has been discussion from time to time that some other people miqht be interested in purchasing water off the line. The plain and simple truth of the matter is that those customers or whatever, might be served better with a package plan to meet their specific needs. If it cooling water, they need one quality of water. If it is a brewery, they might need something else. if it is a municipal purpose, obviously, they have their needs.' Councilman Keffer: "Governor Hunt has mentioned something about for them to help us or help Virqinia Beach, the region for that matter to get more than they could get. They would like to see the Chowan River cleaned up. Is there has that been considered at all, cleaning up that river?" Mr. Watts: "My staff has had extensive conversations with the technical people in Carolina and with the State Water Control Staff. Obviously, some of those discussions have dealt with can the Chowan River be cleaned up and wht the cost would be. I think at this point in time, there is not sufficient scientific data to indicate (inaudible). For example, Union Camp is just tried to clean up significantly. It still does not change the fact that algae shows up downstream in the Chowan River. A few years ago they were talking that it is a nitrogen problem. Now they feel it is a phosphorus problem. It is probably a good thing they did not go to the trouble a few years ago to clean up the nitrogen because they would have probably could have wasted a lot of money. THere has been a lot of discussion. I think from a question of time and money that is involved and what it would take to clean up the Chowan River, there is still not enough data in to indicate that we could clean it up enough that it would be suitable for our purposes or that we could keep algae from occuring." Councilman Keefer: "Okay, again, we are probably working with Norfolk. Norfolk already has lakes with clear water. I am not sure if I understand whether the water is coming directly to Norfolk or is it going to come to one of the lakes in Suffolk. Has that been thought of at all?" -7- Mr. Watts: "All of our cost estimates were based on bringing the lines we had to pick a point so that the cost estimate--we had to pick a beginning and end. The point that we picked was where the Norfolk pipeline needed one of their booster pump stations so that we had the option of if we wanted to we could pump it into the lakes or if we wanted to continue to pipe it all the way, we could. I think that is an engineering detail and there are some financial considerations. Certainly bringing it into the lakes at this point in time would not close it for bringing it by pipeline the rest of the way at some future date. There may be, in fact, some future cost benefits to Norfolk from the standpoint of having a better quality of water to treat. They may not have to purchase as much chemicals. I would think that Chesapeake could certainly benefit from having a better quality of water to treat that maybe their existing plant with some modi- fications could be upgraded to handle that. But, that is an enqineering item that needs to be studied." Councilman Keffer; "Another thing is I am truly with political and and I think finance is a big thing. I am person@lly not impressed with SPSA up now. Would it be possible for SPSA to get involved as far as finance is con- cerned--selling the bonds and so forth?" Mayor Jones: "Mr. Bimson, would you like to address that?" Mr. Bimson: "Our preliminary research indicates they could. I don't know whether they would or not." Councilman Keffer: "Is there an advantage to involving SPSA over whichever cities decide to participate running their own individual bonds instead of going to a water authority like the industrialists have done for so long. I am not sure I understand why we are paying them when we are not getting anything out of them." Mr. Bimson: "I am afraid I can't answer that." Councilman Keffer: "Is it possible for, suppose that Chesapeake and Virginia Beach decide to participate in this project. Is it possible for Chesapeake to sell bonds for their part of the project and Virginia Beach to sell them for their part, or does it all have to be financed under one bond purchase?" Mr. Bimson: "Are you talking with SPSA now?" Councilman Keffer: "I am talking without SPSA." Mr. Bimson: "Yes sir." Councilman Keffer: "Could an authority set up between two cities that does not use SPSA sell bonds?" Mr Bimson: "I think you could use that authority if you wanted to." Councilman Keffer: "I am not opposed to using SPSA where we can. Okay, I have one other question, I just wanted to make a statement about why Virginia Beach SPSA (inaudible). I still applaud Virginia Beach for being brave enough to take this step. I wish I was able to do something to help you along with it. The people of SPSA work for wages. The people of Virginia Beach work for survival I think that really makes a difference on how hard you work to get something done. I can't say enough with my applaud for what you have done." Mayor Jones: "I would like to respond similar to that, Mr. Keffer, if I may. There is a possibility if we make our presentation to SPSA and there is enough interest on the part of the members to participate through either SPSA or outside of SPSA that either separate bond issuance by the individual cities could be available or bonds could be issued through SPSA. The question of whether or not we would prefer to use either SPSA or draw up some type of joint agreement between a number of other cities will, to a large extent, be determined following our presentation to SPSA tomorrow. We are not in a position at this time to say which way we want to go. The important point, I gruess, that we would like to make to you on that particular issue is that we are open to suggestions, we are open to regional cooperation on solving this water problem for Tidewater Vir- ginia. We don't see it as just a Virginia Beach project. We see it as solving the regional water problem and are willing to work to that end. Whether or not we will be able to work through SPSA or whether or not we will have to work out some other type of arrangement outside of SPSA between ourselves and the cities who wish to be involved will be determined, to a large extent, upon the reaction of SPSA itself to what we might suggest to them." Councilman Keffer: "I will say again that SPSA hasn't done very much to solve the water problem. I would certainly hope that whoever is given this project is successful. Do not turn loose of the reins completely. You see, I don't want to see the City of Virginia Beach work out the agreement with Chesapeake and then turn it over to someone else who will then sit on it just so they get an annual salary. I would rather see someone who has got a real interest in it hold the reins somewhat so that you keep this thing going. It @uld be my recommendation, personally, from Chesapeake to the City of Virginia Beach to keep a hand on the reins." Mayor Jones@ "I think we sympathize with that." Councilman Speers: "Mayor, Vice Mayors, ladies and gentlemen, this is quite an event for us all to meet together. I certainly co=end you for what you have done. It had to be done for the total area--not just Virginia Beach. The longer you put it off, the worser it gets. You have got to start now. I have attended several meetings before, and I was on the Council before, and the comment I had from the different localities that this pipeline, waterline coming through Lake Gaston, they did not want big brother Norfolk, Virginia Beach, or Chesapeake bringing water through their domain of well water and then make them pipe it back in to . They seem to think that if you could put this pumping station so that the water they needed for their domain they could tap on and buy it. A lot of them felt like they didn't want to be stuck buying from another source when they have already got a pipeline running through. That was the comments that I had from the different meetings that I have attended with the representatives of different localities. If this is done, whoever does the purifying of the water, will they still control the water? If Chesapeake decides to go this route, and Norfolk decides to do the purifying and so forth, are they going to control how much water we get? What control will they have over it? I feel like Mr. Keffer does that more has been accomplished through the City Manager's and the Mayors and so forth working together than any of the SPSA or so forth working together. We can't stay in this situation for any length of time. We have to get together and start working towards the project. That was the thing that I wanted to mention about the different localities. Somebody is going to be complaining if they pipe water through their locality and they don't get to use it. " Mayor Jones: "I think, if I may, I will try to address two points that you have brou@ t up. The first point that you brought up was water along the way for other users. Mr. Watts has already explained to you the rational for not wanting to treat the water at the source and sending it all the way down the pipeline as treated water, so I won't get into that. As far as communities along the way wbo might want water, I would like to emphasize to you that we are not adverse to cotnmunities along the way having water. Whether or not we would want to accept the responsibility for treating the water they would want is another question. It might be that if they want water, that there would be an opportunity for them to take water from the pipeline. If the community or group of communities somewhere along the way would want to build or provide their own treatment faci- lities to treat their water." Councilman Speers: "I think you answered the question very thoroughly." Mayor Jones: "The second point that you brought up, if we bring the water down here and say bring it through Norfolk, how would you insure that we get our water? We would, of course, enter into a contractual agreement that would be a very specific agreement that the community that would be treating the water would insure our supply of that water. I guess that is the best way I can answer that question. I would like to reiterate that the details of that type of an arrangement have not been worked out at this point." -9- Mayor Jones: "One point the City Manager brought to my attention will probably help clarify questions. The water that would come out at the Lake Gaston point would be metered at that point and would also be metered when it came out of the treatment plant so that we would be assured of the water that we have provided for the treatment facilities. I don't think there are any questions of getting the water, it is just good business to control a project of this size." Councilman Cartwright: 'What would be the advantage to North Carolina and what can be made or should be made to consider the transport of water to us. The second question is what would be the procedure that this group or whomever would obtain the right of eminent domain for your easements?" Mayor Jones: "The first question was about North Carolina bringing water to us. You are making an assumption that the draw down may be in North Carolina. That may not be the case. Second, the right of eminent domain, I think I will let our City Attorney answer that question." Mr. Bimson: "We will discuss that in Executive Session." Councilman Butt: "Can I ask a question? The interbasin transfer, we have always heard that there are problems with that basic transfer. Maybe we don't have to go that route. Can you enlighten us on that particular point, or is this something that is going to have to be talked out later on or something you are going to take up with the General Assembly to get something changed?" Mayor Jones: "As to what our policy is going to be on interbasin transfer, I think, again, this is something that probably each Council should be informed of in Executive Session." Mr Maxwell: "One question, Mr. Watts. I think I heard you right. You said that 60 Million gallons from Lake Gaston is approximately 1/16 of an inch?" Mr. Watts: "We did calculations based on an actual flow and found that under the worst conditions 60 Million gallons drawn would amount to two inches. Just for your information, 150 Million gallons a day amounts to less than a 10 inch draw. There is a significant amount of water in that river basin. I know that your Vice Mayor asked a question earlier about North Carolina. The plain and simple truth of the matter is that their technical staff is well aware of the fact that the draw that we are talking about represents no significant impact on the river basin. Based on that, it would probably be extremely difficult to win an argument that there is some adverse environmental impact." Councilman Butt: "Then you are saying this has the least impact of the three. I do agree with Mr. Speers and Mr. Yeffer that if we could watch out for the co=unities along the way it may take some of the effect on them. I think the information about the water being treated on this end should be shared with them. I know many counties and co=unities are thinking, 'what are we going to get out of it'. I think that would leave a good feeling with the communities that we are considering them to some point to." Mr. Watts: "I think it is well that the Members of the Council keep in mind that these impoundments that two of them were built and owned by VEPCO. The pur- pose of those are hydro-electric generating plants and all of the water that is taken out would have to probably involve some compensation to VEPCO for lost generating capacity, so it is not that water is free without some associated costs. I think one other concern on the parts of communities is that there is, how much water would really be drawn. We did some calculations that showed that even to meet all of the requirements, fishing, wildlife, meet all of the require- ments in the year 2030, there were still 352 million gallons of water per day available above the requirements in the worst possible conditions. Keep in mind that all of the water that is withdrawn does affect hydro-electric generating capacity and it is our understanding that we would have to sign a contract with VEPCO and probably the Corps for reallocation from hydro-electric power to water supply. So, it is not like the water is free, there is some compensation involved." 1 0 Mr. Maxwell- "Of the $184,000,000, this includes $152,000,000 in actual construction costs of what?" Councilman Keffer: "The pipeline, the intake?" Mr. Watts: "The pump station, the inline boosters, and the connection at this point. Keep in mind that eventhough for the purposes of these maps these are strictly preliminary routes. There has been no preliminary engineering done from the stand- point of the best routing or what is the most cost effective. The rest of the cost in the $184,000,000 are some costs for financing during the period of construction and the costs of the engineering associated with this. It does not include long- term financing costs, it does not include any compensation or pumping costs which we all consider to be operational costs." Mr. Maxwell: "It does not include any additions or depending upon what kind of agreement is made with Norfolk, if any, as to what they might require for us to give for their treatment facilities." Mr. Watts: "No sir." Mr. Maxwell: "Just one other question, you are talking about withdrawing how much originally?" Mr. Watts; "The cost estimate is based on the full 60 million, and the size and the--" Mr. Maxwell: "60 Million?" Mr. Watts: "Yes sir." Co=cilman Jenkins: 'I just have one question. I assume that Virginia Beach has spent a considerable amount of money to get this information together. I also assume that this package, if ever it is sold, that they would expect to get their money back." Mayor Jones: "If we would expect to get our money back, it would be on the basis of any community that would participate with us, yes sir." Vice Mayor Bazemore: "Just one more comment. I would suggest that SPSA has pro- vided forms for the various cities and some information may be used from these to draw upon some of their expertise so that we don't have to spend more than we have to." Councilman Jenkins: "What kind of time frame are we talking about as far as what would be your next step at this point?" Mayor Jones: "Are you talking about from start to finish?" Councilman Jenkins: "Mr. Watts mentioned something from 5 years or 6 years." ayor Jones: "Five years of construction is what they estimate." Councilman Jenkins: "As far as the next step in this, (inaudible).,' Mayor Jones: "To answer your question as specificallly as possible, which is very big. We, of course, anticipate addressing SPSA tomorrow and making available to them an opportunity to pursue this choice with us. We also intend to try to inform any of the other community City Council's of the information that we have provided to you and what our positions are. We have already voted in open session to take the necessary steps to pursue a permit from the Army Corps of Engineers. The pro- cess beginning when we took that action to go into all the necessary enviromental impact studies, engineering studies, acquisitions will be necessary. All the different processes that we feel are necessary may take as much as 5 years also. So, we are talking about 10 years probably before we could have this project on the market. Does that answer your question?" Councilman Jenkins: 'Yes. We are under the impression that your Council is unani- mously in favor of this proposal. Is that correct?" Mayor Jones: "Yes, we had a unanimous vote." Councilman McCoy: "I was the only one who didn't vote, but I am in favor of it." Mayor Jones: "Yes, Dr. McCoy was out of town when we voted." Mayor Ornan: "If there are no other questions, I would say, do we have any questions for them Mr. Dwarkanath?" Mr. Dwarkanath: "No sir, all the questions I had have been answered?" Mayor Omana: "City Attorney, Mr. Hallman?" Mr. Hallman: "All of my questions have been answered." Mayor Oman: "I would like to express something to you on behalf of the City Council of Chesapeake in appreciation for this opportunity. I have appreciated this meeting. This is the first Council meeting that I have participated in that I was allowed to smoke. I have enjoyed the day, the hospitality and the information. So, do you have anything else you wanted to add?" Mayor Jones: "Yes I do. We appreciate very much your coming and being with us today. We wanted you to come because we wanted you to know and we wanted to express to you our sincerity in being willing to work with the other co=unities in this project. We felt that the best way to do it was to look at you eyeball to eyeball and try to answer any questions that you might have. As to the two questions that were asked that Mr. Bimson and I felt should be discussed in Executive Session, why, I am sure that our attorneys or our City Managers will be glad to discuss these privately and bring them to you in our individual Executive Sessions. We have purposely avoided an Executive Session today in order that there will be no concept of secrecy about what we are doing. We appreciate very much your being here, we thank you for coming. Hopefully we can get together sometime." Councilman Keffer: "May I ask one more question? If I understand this thing, Vir- ginia Beach as voted and intends to pursue this thing. Ii someone else wants to go along and get in on it, you are open to that too. But, regardless of whether you get help or not, your intention is to pursue it." Mayor Jones: "Yes sir. Dr. McCoy, I believe, has something." Councilman McCoy. "I would like to say one thing before we go, I appreciate the Tact that you all have come over. I have been throuqh these battles during a crisis time, and it is nice to be in a meeting where we talk about water and Norfolk is not the star attraction. Also, in an open meetinq such as this with the press here, you are standing before the pearly gates, I guess, and bearing your soul. I appreciate Mr. Keffer and Mr. Speers being here and speaking their mind. I think it is nice for us to meet like this and I appreciate the fact that you all have come over for this meeting." Mayor Jones-. "I would like to point out that it is our intention to talk with all of the cities if they are interested--Norfolk, Suffolk--anybody who might be interested. We don't feel that anybody should be left out of an opportunity to participate." Meeting adjourned at 1:45 p.m.